tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-318245630918980101.post829151022415325203..comments2023-11-08T22:57:40.237-05:00Comments on OUT OF THE BOX: A MERCIFUL GOD...NOT DISPASSIONATE NATUREBilly Longhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13739420756402743057noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-318245630918980101.post-33055675609574664902011-06-17T07:44:04.399-04:002011-06-17T07:44:04.399-04:00Good stuff - helpful to understand more clearly wh...Good stuff - helpful to understand more clearly what you are saying...Lonnie Shieldshttp://pastor@newlifegrandrapids.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-318245630918980101.post-54176594884177657372011-06-16T03:06:55.066-04:002011-06-16T03:06:55.066-04:00Thanks for the comments, Lonnie, Michael, and Lowe...Thanks for the comments, Lonnie, Michael, and Lowell. <br />I do appreciate them.<br />BillyBilly Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739420756402743057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-318245630918980101.post-37500063524120071992011-06-15T23:05:24.771-04:002011-06-15T23:05:24.771-04:00I will respond uncharacteristically briefly to Bil...I will respond uncharacteristically briefly to Billy and Lonnie. I agree with you both! (How's that for being a lawyer?) I didn't read Billy's initial post to say that all the calamities going on are direct actions of God in judgment of the evil in the earth. As Lonnie points out, that would make God a cruel and heartless tyrant, not a loving Father. But,given what we know of the "progression" (can't think of a better word) of human history toward a cataclysmic end, I don't think it would be very far amiss to suggest that what we see going on in the world is "indirectly" a manifestation of God's judgment. By that I mean, God created a perfect universe and populated it with people who He meant to live and thrive in it according to His own purposes and plan. When, however, humanity (categorically, not every individual person) turns hell-bent on a self-directed collision course with reality, then the world does not live and thrive. It languishes, deteriorates and dies. The weather and other disasters could certainly be a manifestation of grave dysfunction in the cosmos. (By the way, my previous comment was from Anonymous. I don't know whether Lonnie will remember Lee Peterson from ORU days or not. I was very good friends with Bill Steere.)Lowell Petersonhttp://lpeterson@live.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-318245630918980101.post-63565915898418772982011-06-15T07:20:09.004-04:002011-06-15T07:20:09.004-04:00Forgive me for adding another comment. But I do a...Forgive me for adding another comment. But I do also think that repentance is a much deeper work in our lives than we realize. When the Father is moving toward us in His kindness, the repentance He is working in us is a change of mind, focus, and direction. For me forgiveness is asked for and received often, the deeper work of repentance takes longer and has a deeper more fundamental impact in my life<br />My sense is that real repentance might only happen a handfull of times in the life of a follower of Christ and it is God's kindness (read patience with me) that will lead me to this change.Michael Tomkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15119972938641124272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-318245630918980101.post-58851164639628633522011-06-15T06:55:46.693-04:002011-06-15T06:55:46.693-04:00Lonnie,
I have re-read my recent posts dealing wit...Lonnie,<br />I have re-read my recent posts dealing with God’s judgment, and I am comfortable with what I what I presented, given the context in which it is given.<br />The first motivating thought in my post is that there is a God, as opposed to the Atheist who thinks God does not exist and that He is irrelevant to earth’s events, and as opposed to the deist who thinks God simply walked off and left us to ourselves. There is a God who manages the affairs of earth, and we must acknowledge and call upon Him.<br />When I say “nothing is out of His control” I am saying that nothing is “out of control,” that is, God is not helplessly standing by watching. <br />I would not make a blanket statement saying bad weather is God’s judgment. The weather is like everything else in life, some of it is good, some of it is bad, some of it is a blessing from God, some of it is an attack from the devil, some of it is Divine judgment, and some of it is simply mystery. I do not say that people who are experiencing bad things are being judged (See my “Icy Hot” post), although sometimes bad things do indicate reaping and judgment. But I would also add that sometimes bad things happen to innocent people like Job. But we should not be afraid to face the fact that God does at some point send judgment on iniquity.<br />Life is too complex to blame everything on God or on the devil. Discernment and compassion are necessary before we start making presumptions and judgments about other people. But I do feel that our nation is headed into judgment unless there is a national repentance or a sufficient amount of intercessors (Gen 18:16-33). <br />The kindness of God leads us to repentance. That is God’s first approach, and He is patient and longsuffering with His kindness. But when we do not respond to His kindness, there does come a time when He disciplines His children to help them along (See “Goodness and Severity of God” post). There also comes a time when the judgment of God does fall on a nation or people when iniquity reaches its fullness.<br />My opinion is that we would be a bit arrogant to think that our nation does not deserve judgment. It is this awareness of potentially impending judgment that awakens and stirs the intercessors to arise, pray, and stand in the gap. If we see no potential for judgment, then we see no urgent need to “sigh and cry because of the abominations” as Ezekiel said in chapter 9. <br />I believe in the “Goshen principal” in which God hides and protects His people. I pray that my household and God’s people will live in “Goshen” in the days ahead. But I think also that there are times that the righteous may suffer to some degree along with the rest when judgments fall on a nation. Daniel and Ezekiel both were taken into captivity with Israel; and there must have been some righteous people in Israel who went into captivity with the others. If an economic crisis hits our nations, we will all feel it, including the church. Although, I think the church should ask for and believe for the “Goshen” experience.<br />I do see pestilence, sword, famine, etc as instruments of God’s judgment in scripture, and that He used them on Israel and other nations. <br />I think a “plague” can be a judgment on a nation in a general sense, but not necessarily on the individuals. For instance, an epidemic of AIDS might be judgment on a nation in general as a result of its rampant promiscuity, but not necessarily a judgment on every individual with AIDs since many innocent people have contracted the disease..<br />The “Euroclydon” post speaks to the same audience in our nation that Amos or Joel spoke to in their books. So I do believe God sends judgments, and I do believe sin will bring judgments. But I don’t believe everything bad is a judgment of God. I do think the topic is too complex to cover all the bases in a short post.Billy Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739420756402743057noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-318245630918980101.post-52928238516954635442011-06-14T22:56:50.387-04:002011-06-14T22:56:50.387-04:00Lonnie,
Please define, "kindness of God"...Lonnie,<br />Please define, "kindness of God". <br />One of the things that always scares me, is that God would become indifferent to what I am doing. I would rather have his kindness (even if it looks or feels like judgement) than his becoming indifferent toward me.Michael Tomkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15119972938641124272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-318245630918980101.post-86051237696092092172011-06-14T09:39:40.923-04:002011-06-14T09:39:40.923-04:00Hey Billy,
Not sure I agree with your premise on t...Hey Billy,<br />Not sure I agree with your premise on this one. I don't think our only two choices are either God controls all the weather events or we're at the mercy of dispassionate nature. If God controls it all, and bad weather is His judgment, then He must be really mad at the folks in Bangladesh and parts of India, because they get hammered regularly. Did God send Euroclydon? I believe God is sovereign, but that means that ultimately, His will will be accomplished, not that He controls everything - we would have no choices if He controlled everything!<br />Scripture says "the kindness of God leads men to repentance" - not the judgment of God! When the wrath of God is claimed to be behind bad weather, the only response I have seen from folks is bitterness against God for killing their children. If this is His strategy, it doesn't seem to be working!<br />In Scripture, when His judgment came on Egypt, the Israelites were exempt - your interpretation has his judgment falling on the righteous and the wicked. Doesn't seem like the Jesus I know...<br /><br />Lonnie:>)Lonnie Shieldshttp://pastor@newlifegrandrapids.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-318245630918980101.post-22972504869017446722011-06-13T05:17:26.635-04:002011-06-13T05:17:26.635-04:00A very good post, my friend, and so timely. I fea...A very good post, my friend, and so timely. I fear that I am beginning to sound to many people, Christians among them, like some fanatic standing down on the sidewalk with a sandwich board proclaiming, “Repent! The End is Near!” And who knows, maybe I am off on some crazy tangent. But it distresses me that I do not hear more people in the Church of Jesus Christ sounding the alarm. Don’t we get it that the very things Jesus spoke of prophetically are happening before our eyes? At this very moment, among Libya, Egypt, Syria, Palestine, Israel, Iran, Yemen and Lebanon, chaos is running amok and the situation cries out for a strong figure to assert hegemony over the region and bring an era of false peace. I am not sure of the prophetic significance, but the Asian world is in a similar shambles: India and Pakistan are sworn enemies, both with nuclear power; China is raising up as the world’s next superpower while America and western Europe are in a state of precipitous decline. And, of course, you mentioned the natural calamities. Our “culture” (I hesitate to even call it that) is deluded into thinking that our salvation will be in technology while character and wisdom are mocked as outdated concepts.<br /><br />I made comments similar to these to a colleague at work the other day, a fellow who professes to be a devout Christian.<br />His reply to me, and I quote, was: “I have one word for you: DECAF!”<br />Lowell P.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-318245630918980101.post-71769837288937837782011-06-12T20:00:36.984-04:002011-06-12T20:00:36.984-04:00Billy,
My wife and I were having a similar convers...Billy,<br />My wife and I were having a similar conversation today about all of the weird weather events. I have sensed that God is trying to get our attention. In our attempt at trying to feel like we are in control there are still several levers the Father can pull to get our attention. <br /><br />I also have wondered if some of the earliest movements of revival would not take place in the areas most impacted by these disasters. <br />Thanks for sharing.Michael Tomkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15119972938641124272noreply@blogger.com